Lyrics, morality and 'God'.

[lea]

Ok, TJ, this one's a little bit serious...prepared for some theological debate, my friend...?

Don't forget the love He gave us
cuz we could change this world
into a pretty new thing

Lord, please give me a sign

^ taken from Pretty New Things...as you all know, of course...

So. In the lyrics of this song, you essentially target declining standards of morality and humanity in the modern western world...that's a fair assessment, yes?

Then the above verse. I just wondered if...I mean, I'm the resident board heretic...and to me it seems like you're making a case for religion as an answer to the world's ills. Now I'm genuinely not (repeat: NOT) attacking your beliefs on any level...I don't believe in doing that, everyone's entitled to their own opinions of course, and should be afforded basic respect for what they believe...however...I think debate is healthy, and when I don't understand something, or seek to have it clarified, I generally ask the appropriate questions to satisfy my curiosity.

So what I wanna know is...do you really believe that religion is the answer? After all, many of the world's wars have been fought over religion...what to one man is a comfort and a reason to be kind is, to another person, a reason to take up arms and start killing. Do you think there can be a solution to the ills of our society that doesn't involve divinity in any shape or form, or...not? Do you think religion and morality are irrevocably intertwined? Can one exist without the other? Because I would argue that they can. Does irreligious amount to immoral for you? Are declining rates of belief responsible for increases in crime, and other undesirable modern diseases?

I'm just interested in your take on this. And anyone else who wants to jump in, feel free...

[marbar7890]

What I think, though not really relating to the song, the answer would be the belief in something, anything that would truely help society. Whether the belief in a greater being, a God if you will, or just the belief of hope. Though 'Lord' is said in the song, I don't view it as narrowing down to certain religious. I see it as someone we idolize, think of as a greater being than us, ie. God, a father, a friend, etc. But the context of the song is showing TJ's beliefs.

When I personally here the line 'don't forget the love he gave us' I not only think of God, Jesus, religious figures, but people who have sacrificed themselves in one form or another to make a positive contribution to the world and society.

[lea]

Hmmmm.

This is getting interesting ;D

Hmmm. 'He', though. Mother Theresa was female...Marie Curie...I'm drawing blanks but my point is plenty of people 'gave love' and weren't male. And not everyone sees God as male. Some people have more than one God. I have two, myself...works for me...

As someone who was raised with humanist morals, and not in any particular religion, I'm reluctant to bring religion into the debate at all. I think the major problem with modern society...if you'll permit me to be so simplistic...has to do with de-humanising one another. Like I said to you on AIM, Maria - there is so much distance between people nowadays. I don't know what it was like in the US, but certainly in Britain a few hundred years back, people lived in towns that had a sense of community. Small places, with a population of a few hundred, perhaps...it's much harder to commit a crime against someone you've known since you were in nappies (diapers ) the larger a community gets, the more dilute the connections between people become - and mentally, it becomes easier to shoot or rape or rob someone if you've never seen them before and never will again. You can dissociate from the human cost of your actions. Think about how many people shoplift from large, faceless corporations. Would those same people steal bread from...the local baker's shop, when the baker is a close family friend of many years? See the difference? It's when people de-humanise each other that it becomes possible to do repulsive things to one another. The challenge is to personalise other humans and make them 'real', in a world where people increasingly don't speak to their neighbours, or know their local store owner, or...whatever...

Although anonymity isn't an EXCUSE. Hell, I don't speak to my neighbours and I still don't break into their houses and rob them...

What else? Consumer culture. This is a big one. Why are so many people dissatisfied? I really think that marketing and the media has a big part to play in this. We're constantly bombarded with advertisements for products to make us thinner, younger-looking, healthier, happier. It is in the interests of the economy to foster a dissatisfied population. If people are happy with the way they look, they aren't going to buy your diet pills, or book about losing weight, or anti-wrinkle cream, or cellulite-gel, or a million other peripheries whose stock value is probably through the roof right now. Big companies would go bankrupt. And of course, selling stuff is far more important than keeping people happy, healthy, or indeed alive...

Of course, in the extreme, this leads to anorexia. Bulimia. Self-harm. The media constantly shows us what we SHOULD be and SHOULD look like...and if we don't fit the mold, it's easy to become totally depressed. And there's no escape from it...unless you become Amish and shun the media entirely...you're constantly reminded, every day, of all the ways that you don't 'measure up' to some arbitrary ideal...no wonder susceptible people, like teenagers etc, are increasingly depressed and taking prozac (and you don't think THEIR stock value is a concern...?!!) and throwing up after meals. You would think that the government...ours, yours, Canada's, all the other countries in Europe and beyond...would do something to combat the emotional seige on their citizens that takes place every single day, on the pages of magazines and in the TV ads and in the music videos (don't even get me started on THAT subject). Instead, they sit back and watch their economies boom while another kid kills themselves...and another girl sticks her fingers down her throat, and another teenager goes into counselling...

the money sealed our fate - good call, TJ...

[lea]

Hey Zindle...

You know how you think Brits are Godless?

Well, I objected to the sentiment. And as the sole representative of (and therefore defender of) my country...I did some research.

In the most recent UK census, 72% of the population identified themselves as Christian. 1% were Hindu, 3% Muslim, with the smaller percentages belonging to Jewish, Skih and Buddhist faiths. Personally I know many Catholics, Protestants...there's a Church at the top of my street and a Mosque at the bottom...I have several friends who consider themselves Buddist, my one other friend is a Sikh...and I myself identify as Humanist and neo-Pagan. In my flat last term, there were two Catholics, two atheists, one neo-Pagan, one follower of Shinto, one Buddhist, and a Hindu...out of a flat of eight, six of us professed some kind of religion or other...do we still sound like heathens? I mean, we haven't yet reached the cultural enlightenment of knowing how to make S'mores, but there are many people of different and varying belief systems in my country. The difference is, it's not really assumed here that if you have a belief, you must be Christian.

Our Church and state are separate in a way that they don't seem to be in the US ('in God we trust', not to mention Bush's rather more disturbing policies on issues like abortion and sex education). Perhaps as a country colonised by Protestant Puritains in the first instance, it's only natural that America should have a strong sense of Christian identity. For us Brits, it's not quite the same. For one, we're way more cynical that you guys...haha. For another, our borders are wide open, and we've had widespread immigration from more or less all over, inclusing many Asian immigrants bringing their own beliefs with them...not to mention the Druids back in the 5th century. The Norman invasion (France is a traditionally Catholic country) and the Anglo-Saxon settlements (bringing influences from the Norse faith and Gods like Odion and Freyr who some Pagans still worship today). There could be a lot of reasons for it - but no, our culture is not as saturated in 'Christian' influence as yours perhaps is. And I don't believe that is to our detriment, not in the slightest...

In the meantime, it amuses me that you would site the 'lack of religion' that Brits supposedly have, while talking to ME. I'm one of the most religious people I know. It's just not the religion that most people expect.

*smirks*

There's my tuppence.

That's two cents to you. Actually more like 3.7 cents, taking into account the exchange rate...

[molly]

Good GOD Lea...lol...do you think you could write a little more

[lea]

molly said:

Good GOD Lea...lol...do you think you could write a little more

Don't encourage me.

[lcforlife]

lol, i love yer points and all the questions, Lea...you tell it like it is.